Lorraine Brown , born 1928
East Falls Historic Society Oral History Interview
Interviewee: Lorraine Brown (LB) with her daughter-in-law Sara Reiter (SR)
Interviewer: Wendy Moody (WM) and Katy Hineline (KH)
Interview: November 18, 2019
Transcribed by: Wendy Moody, EFHS
WM: It is November 18, 2019. We’re in the home of Lorraine Brown, doing an oral history interview - Katy Hineline and Wendy Moody. Also present is Sara Reiter, Lorraine’s daughter.
SR: Daughter-in-law.
WM: In-law! Ok. So thank you, Lorraine, for letting us come.
LB: Oh you’re quite welcome. I just hope I can be of some value.
WM: I’m sure you will. Why don’t we start at the beginning and why don’t you tell us when and where you were born.
LB: I was born in Philadelphia and raised in Philadelphia, and the hospital was St. Luke’s which was down around Poplar Street, somewhere in old Philadelphia.
WM: Is that South Philly?
LB: No, it wasn’t South Philly. It was old Philadelphia, off Girard. I think it was off Girard. It’s no longer there. It’s been torn down. And I think there is another hospital there but I’m not sure what it is.
SR: It’s changed names several times. It’s around 10th and Girard, just north of Girard, sort of what’s now -
WM: What neighborhood would that be?
SR: Northern Liberties.
WM: And when was that?
LB: 1928
WM: What was your exact birthday?
LB: August 2, 1928.
WM: Leo… and how long did you live there?
LB: We were living with my grandmother who came to this country with her children, one of which was my father. And she was quite young when she died, but at that time it wasn’t a young death. It was more average. She came from Russia. My father was born in Harbin, China, because my grandfather worked for the Trans-Siberian Railroad.
ALL: Oh my.
LB: And I think he was one of the first to be in that section of the railroad. And I think he had a drinking problem, and my grandmother had a sponsor and she left and came to this country with three – she had five children – but one was left in Siberia who was older – he was married – and then she came with the other four, one of which was my father and he was just about 5 or 6.
WM: What was your dad’s name and when was he born?
LB: Our last name was Molodyko.
WM: Can you spell that?
LB: And he was Valientin Moldyko? And then he became Ed Harris.
WM: Ed Harris. How do you spell Milideiko?
LB: Molodyko. And my father was (Pause) I’ve forgotten…
WM: When was he born – do you know?
LB: He came here – it was 1903…. pretty sure.
WM: So they came and moved to Northern Liberties and …
LB: Yes, and they rented a home - I don’t know if they rented it - but it was at 3rdand Poplar. And my mother and father were married in Media in 1925 at the courthouse. And the courthouse is still there.
WM: What’s your mother’s name and her maiden name?
LB: Esther, her name was Esther Gordon and she was born in Bronx, New York.
WM: Do you know how they met?
LB: No I don’t, but they were both very good dancers and at that time they had lots of dances, and I’m sure that’s where they met. And my mother loved her mother-in-law. After they were married, we lived there. And they were married three years when I was born. She took care of me, and I remember her swaddling me every night – I still remember…
WM: Your mother?
LB: Not my mother, my grandmother. At the time I spoke Russian but I never read or wrote it, so I was not able to keep it – I knew words, but not real language. After she died, I did not continue Russian.
WM: So then it was your parents, and you, and do have siblings that were living in the house?
LB: I have a brother who is now an orthodox priest and he lives in Florida now. But he did live in Alaska for 32 or 33 years - he had a parish there. He built it from nothing and now it’s a cathedral. I think it’s on the historical list of visiting places in Alaska. But he’s in Florida now. He’s 84 and he’s doing ok, but I think they’re going to be moving to Mechanicsburg in a little while because he has no children in Florida and at this time they would like to be near their kids – they have six.
WM: So how long did you live in Northern Liberties?
LB: I would say it was about four years and then, after the passing of my grandmother, my mother and father bought a home in Kensington but it was around Huntington and – it was pretty far – it’s not at Kensington and Allegheny – it was a lot further than that in lower Kensington. And we were there, I would say, about three years when my mother and father bought a home at Front and Ontario. It was still Kensington, but it was a middle class, blue collar, very friendly neighborhood and I went to middle school there, and I went to elementary school, and I had lots of good friends that I kept – really my whole life - and they’re all gone now except for me.
WM: So at what point – did you move from there to East Falls?
LB: No. When my husband and I got married in 1949, we moved to an apartment close by – it was at 2nd and Ontario. And we were there – that’s where my first child was born – Sara’s husband. That was 69 years ago, and we lived there – and the girl downstairs who owned the apartment – she and her husband. Her name was Lorraine also. And we were friends. But then I became pregnant again with my second son, Barry, and the apartment was growing small. We knew that we wanted to have a bigger home. My mother’s friend – who lived on Front Street also - her husband was a Committeeman, which was a big deal at the time, and he put our name in for Abbottsford Homes.
We knew nothing about Abbottsford Homes until we started making inquiries and found out that it was just for veterans, or spouses of veterans, who had passed. I knew about a veterans home – a veteran’s community – there was one on the Boulevard at the time – I think it was Nabisco’s property at the time, and I had a friend who lived there with her husband, and I visited her several times there, and knew that it was right for them at the time. He had experienced much in Guadalcanal, and really needed contemporaries around him. And it seemed a suitable place for him.
After a while my mother’s friend’s husband, Mr. Wallace, had our name in and we were notified that there was space for us so we moved.
WM: What year was that?
LB: It was in the early 50s. Greg was born in ’50 – he was almost 3 so it was near ’53.
WM: So it was you and your husband and three children? Well, one child at that time …
LB: One child at that time and I was expecting. When we moved in we were greeted very warmly by the people downstairs – the Lee’s – Christine and Tom - and they had a couple of children and it made us feel like we did the right thing.
WM: That’s a great feeling.
LB: Yes. We lived on Defense Terrace – all of the streets were named for places that designated veterans.
WM: Do you remember the names of any of the other streets?
LB: I only remember where we lived – on Defense Terrace. And you could not park in front – there were very few cars – and the cars had a special place at the very end of each terrace. We didn’t have a car and there were very few people that did.
The place that we lived in was very – it was very – I can’t say primitive – it was all the necessary rooms but it certainly wasn’t luxurious, but it was fine. We were very happy to be there. There was a place for children to play that did not include cars or anything really destructive.
WM: Can you describe – just in general – when you went into Abbottsford what it looked like? Many buildings?
LB: Yes. It was large. It was close to a hospital – it was called Women’s Medical. It was off Henry and Abbottsford Road. It was very big, to my mind. There was a gully where the kids could go down and play ball and not be distracted by any oncoming cars or any other vehicles.
WM: They were two story buildings?
LB: Yes. Our home was on the corner but underneath it - to the side - were our neighbors, the Lee’s, and on the terrace there were about ten houses on the same level, and they all led into the gully where you could walk or do whatever – have sports or that kind of thing.
There was a camaraderie there because everyone was either a veteran or the spouse of a veteran and it seemed like they all had similar experiences. They were in the foxhole together. There was a lot of confidence there that they were all doing the right thing. They knew that it was not going to be a permanent home - that someday they would be able to go out on their own and have the money to do what they wanted.
My husband, at the time, he had been working at a carpet company (Artloom Carpet Company) which left the country and he was without a job. Then he worked at … and that lasted not too long. My best friend Eva - her husband was in the elevator business which was, at that time, just for fathers and sons. But he put my husband’s name in as a desirable employee if they would hire him. He had hoped for that. Then he was hired by a door company for the elevator companies, and that door company was right near where Sara and Greg first lived. I don’t know that they are there any more.
WM: Was that in East Falls?
LB: No
SR: That was on Shackamaxon.
WM: What was the name of that company?
SR: The door company…
LB: I don’t know.
WM: That’s ok.
SR: But they installed the elevator doors for the student elevator that used to go up to Costumes and Textiles – he installed those doors. (Ed. note: at Philadelphia Museum of Art)
LB: My husband probably installed those doors and he really enjoyed the job. But there was a lot of traveling. Then he got a call from the elevator company - I forget his boss’s name, but he was very sad to lose him, and my husband went into elevators. And he simply loved it. He was there for 40 some years before he retired.
WM: What was that company called?
LB: At the time it was Eastern. And it was privately owned by a father and his sons.
WM: Where was that located?
LB: That was at 5th and Girard, I think – the offices were there. Since then it has changed names, but they still install elevators. My middle son is still working there.
WM: No kidding, really? That’s great.
LB: But he is ready to retire. But Abbottsford, again, was a place where - my friend Winnie was a widow – her husband had been killed in the war and she was there. She lived two terraces down – I can’t remember the names of those terraces – and everyone was starting to say “We’re not going to be able to live here much longer because there are protests that they want to change it from a Veterans community to a low income community.
WM: That was right around the time that happened – around ’53 – was when it was beginning to switch over.
LB: And the protests were minimal in the beginning and then…
WM: People were protesting that they wanted it to stay the way it was?
LB: No, the protesters were the people who wanted it low income.
WM: Were they coming to your location to protest?
LB: They were coming to our location and marching, and decided this is what it should be. The war was over – I guess for a number of years, and they felt that it was time to change it. Of course everyone was objecting, but people were starting to think about leaving and gathering all their wits about them, and their money, and it was a hard time for many.
WM: So a very transitional time there.
LB: A very transitional time.
WM: Would they come - the people protesting – was this frequent?
LB: It was getting to be very frequent.
WM: Over months? How long a time span?
LB: I would say it went on for about a year.
WM: Were there marches? Or Signs?
LB: Marches. Yes, there were marches. And our friends that we had made there were looking for a new home and we were too. We had the two children. We needed more money, and at the time there was a job opening at Brown Instruments. They made thermostats, but I worked in the office filing and running the mimeograph machine But I took a job from 6 to 10, and my husband took care of the children and I would come home on the Z bus – the Z bus stopped right there on the corner of Abbottsford Homes. And I would meet people coming from Strawbridge’s where they worked.
WM: This was 6 in the morning?
LB: No, six in the evening. Six to ten, so it would be maybe 10:30. And they would be coming from - a couple of the men that I knew from riding the bus and from seeing them in our area – they would talk about the houses they had looked at, and one day the one friend said “Strawbridge’s just had a million dollar day for Strawbridge’s – he said I can’t wait to tell my wife.” So then, a little while later, he told me that they had found a home and they were going to be moving. And then my friends Chris and Tom Lee – they were looking - and then we started looking. That was when we had found the Welsh Road home. But we still didn’t have enough money for the down payment – I think it was $1000 so I took this job with Brown Instrument.
SR: Where was that located?
LB: That was - I took the Z bus there, but I can’t remember exactly where it was. It was on Wyndrim Avenue across the street from Wayne Junction.
WM: Downtown?
LB: No, I think it was closer to you, Sarah, in Glenside. I’m not sure. I think it’s still there. And we went by bus to Holmesburg because we had seen the houses advertised. And that’s when we found the home – a row home in Holmesburg and we lived there for 35 years.
WM: What year did you move there?
LB: That was in the middle ‘50s because Brian was born in ‘58 – my third son. I think - so we had moved there before he was born because he was born at Rolling Hill Hospital and my other two sons were born in Episcopal – Episcopal Hospital is still there but Rolling Hill is now a rehab center, I’m not sure.
WM: So you came to Abbottsford around ’53?
LB: No, about ’54.
WM: And left….? What year do you think you left? ‘57 or so?
SR: Greg was born in ‘50; Barry was born in ‘53 so you came to Abbottsford Homes before Barry was born?
LB: No.
SR: Was he an infant?
LB: No he was one or two.
SR: Oh really; ok.
LB: And I was – Barry was 3 ½, I think, when I was pregnant with Brian – so between Greg and Brian there are 7 years.
WM: I’m just trying to get a sense of how many years you lived there.
LB: We lived there I would say close to three years.
WM: When you were there, where did you do your shopping?
LB: There was a market on the premises and I would allow - we would allow $18 for our weekly shopping (laughter). And sometimes I would have a coach and I‘d bring my groceries home that way or they would have someone bring it.
WM: It was a grocery store?
LB: It was a little market. It had all the things that I needed.
WM: Were there other stores there too?
LB: No, not on the premises.
KH: Were there any community areas where residents got together?
LB: No. It was just the homes in the middle of this open property – open area.
WM: So it had a playground?
LB: It wasn’t a playground – there was no equipment, no swings or seesaws or anything like that. It was just open ground – it was called the gully. That’s what everyone referred to it. And kids had a good time just running and playing ball and so forth.
WM: So it must have been later – I looked it up before I came here – when they were first advertising Abbottsford Homes they said there was a basketball court and a playground. Do you think that came later when it became public housing?
LB: I’m sure that came later. I’m sure that came later.
KH: Now that would have been a federal program at a when you were there.
LB: In the beginning it was strictly for veterans.
SR: Was it very inexpensive?
LB: I think we paid $50 a month and they wanted to make it low income and those who, I guess, were on welfare and so on. But they made it so that they didn’t say veterans were being kicked out or anything – they just said it was going to be low income and I think if you made more than a certain amount of money you had to leave – find other places to live.
WM: So at the point when you left, was that before or after that transition took place?
LB: It was in the middle – people were leaving and coming and it was later - not very much later - that it was made into low income housing. And I think it’s still on the list of low income housing. I haven’t been out that way in many, many years.
KH: Now was Roosevelt Boulevard there at the time?
LB: Oh Roosevelt Boulevard was in, yes.
KH: So there was a sort of barrier between East Falls and Abbottsford Homes because of the highway running between them, or did you get into East Falls?
LB: No, I was in Abbottsford Homes is located in East Falls.
KH: So did you go to shop in East Falls in addition to the market?
LB: Well yes. We didn’t have a car but there were things that we did. Our means of transportation then was the bus. If we went downtown we would take the elevated or the subway.
SR: So you would take the bus to the subway.
LB: Yes.
WM: If you needed things like clothes or a hardware store, would you go to Germantown or lower East Falls?
LB: You know what - I just don’t remember. My husband did a lot of shopping as far as bringing things home from the market, but we did most of our shopping at the community shop-store-market.
WM: Can you describe that store a little bit? Who ran it?
LB: Well, it wasn’t like Giant (laughter). I think I remember just one person waiting on things, and you asked for things at a counter. Bread and milk and that kind of thing you could take from the storage that was provided. As far as the other things, I remember just getting fruit and whatever was needed for the week. It certainly wasn’t a beautiful big market. But I don’t know if there were big beautiful markets at that time.
I remember when we lived on 2nd Street in the apartment we would go to an A & P and that was the best that was around at the time.
WM: Did you ever go into East Falls down Midvale and Ridge? Do you have any memories?
LB: I have no memories of that.
WM: Ok. Did you ever go to the movie theater here?
LB: At that time, no. There were very – seemed to be confined to living in there and then going to work.
WM: And your children then were too young to be in school?
LB: Too young to be in school. Then when we found our home in Holmesburg, the school was very close by – it was the Brown School and they did all their elementary school work there. And then went to high school – Lincoln High School - and then I started working at Brown School as an aide, then I became a reading aide in there, and had many good friends in the school.
But as far as Abbottsford, it was a place that was very needed at the time, as I look back, because it gave those veterans the need to know that there were so many others like themselves.
They were patriots – on holidays that required flags they didn’t disappoint. And it was a place where there was a warmth about it – my friend Winnie became – she worked at the ballgames and she was cooking hotdogs and she was very fussy and the hotdogs came out beautiful. All of a sudden all of these people were there and the hotdogs were coming out raw. Everyone knew about it and it was something we could all appreciate and laugh at with her, but those were the kinds of things that drew the people there together.
And there was a sadness when, although they knew they would sometime leave, they didn’t expect it to be in a hasty manner, which was went on.. And as I look back on it now, I’m glad that we lived there. It gave me a new sense of what these people went through and what turmoil they must have lived for a while. And I think this quieted them.
WM: So it was really a big support group in a way. So Katy kind of asked before, but were there any communal activities – was there a meeting room? Any organized programs, or events or picnics or anything for the residents?
LB: I don’t remember too many things that drew everybody together, but they somehow found each other and were able to communicate and have that camaraderie. So even though we were not there for a length of time, it was a good place to be for the time we were there.
WM: Now the people who did have school age children, where did they go to school?
LB: They went right there – I’m not sure the name of the school – I don’t know that there were buses.
WM: Was it Mifflin School?
LB: I think it was Mifflin.
WM: Do you have any memories of the library – did you go down to the library?
LB: I don’t remember the library and I’m a library person! I don’t remember one being there. I know I was very busy.
WM: Was there a library on the premises of Abbottsford?
LB: No.
WM: Did they ever talk about the history of Abbottsford? It had been a mansion before they built the housing there, of the owner of Dobson Mills – it was called Bella Vista.
LB: They might have, but that I don’t remember.
KH: Did you carry on with those friendships that you had?
LB: I did for a time with the Lee’s, and with Chris and Bernice down at the other end, but after – I don’t know what is going on with them now. The Lee’s were older than I was - the two of us – I’m sure they were both older because their children were older, a lot older. And the other people, I think they moved to another state. And Winnie and her child – I’m not sure – the lady next door was a widow also – she lived to the right of me, on the same level.
WM: You said that the apartments were somewhat simple, but can you take a minute to describe what they were like inside?
LB: Yes. We had a living room and a kitchen and then it was 2 bedrooms – I’m not sure that they were all on one level – it seems to me that the bedrooms and the bath…. the homes were terraced. The Lee’s were below us, but they were not directly. Part of it was under our place. So that when you came out, you had to walk down and kind of go around, but it was still attached to ours, which was a level higher.
WM: But were the bedrooms on the same level as the living room?
LB: I don’t think they were.
WM: Was there a washing machine?
LB: When we were in our apartment, my husband used to take our wash to my mother’s (laughter). She had a wringer washing machine, and I had a little tiny machine, and I used to wash a lot by hand. I used Tide products. I had to go to the skin and cancer hospital to have my hands wrapped for 12 days at a time because my hands were broken out from the Tide. I finally had to have Xray treatments on my hands.
That was before I moved out.
SR: Greg talks about – he remembers having a toy ironing board and an iron and he would iron when you were ironing.
LB: I would iron every Tuesday –I haven’t ironed now for 2 years!
WM: Did you ever go into Germantown?
LB: Yes, a couple of times – I went with my friend Peggy.
WM: Any memories of that?
LB: Well, we went to lunch there, and we also did some shopping at one of the famous stores, and I can’t remember the name of it. Everyone knew about it.
KH: Allen’s was one of them, and Rowells was one.
LB: It might have been.
KH: That was the fancier of the two.
LB: It was a fancy store. My friend really liked it. And she sewed. And she would buy material at that fabric store.
KH: I think that fabric store is still there.
WM: On Germantown.
KH: Gaffney.
WM: Did you take a trolley or bus into Germantown?
LB: Yes.
WM: Were there any holiday traditions at Abbottsford? At Christmas? Anything you remember?
LB: No. People decorated. I don’t remember any holiday traditions for the group. I know there were gatherings that we went to in our own area there. Food was provided by everyone, and there was a joyfulness to the groups. But I don’t remember any aggression or anything of that sort. It seemed very calm at the time.
WM: So it seemed like a very supportive environment.
LB: Yes.
WM: Did you go to a church when you lived there?
LB: No. No. We did go a couple of times to a church that was a candy store, and on Sundays it became a Fundamentalist Church.
WM: Right on the grounds of Abbottsford?
LB: No, no, no. We came on the bus. Actually it was at Front and the Boulevard. And then after we moved from Abbottsford, we started going to that church. And of course the church has since moved and bought properties that became their churches, but not the candy store (laughter)
The Fundamentalist Church did not acknowledge anyone drinking. So the place where we were, at the bottom of the candy store, it was like a hall and they had a bar. And then when they would come in on Sunday morning they would cover the bar, but you could still smell the beer! (laughter)
SR: When you were at Abbottsford, was it all white or was it mixed racially?
LB: There were very few people that were not white.
SR: But there were some?
LB: There were some. Yes. Yes.
KH: All of you must have been the same age – which was another reason it was so comfortable.
LB: That’s right. They shared experiences. Not that they were together in the war, but their experiences were similar. It gave them the feeling of similarity.
WM: Where was your husband stationed during the war?
LB: He was in the Navy. And another thing, most of the people that were there had a loss of someone – either a spouse or a relative. My husband lost his one brother in the Pacific. He was on board his ship – he was on the Savannah and then the Battleship New Jersey. And when he was on the Savannah and they were being bombed, the captain came to find him to tell him his that brother had been lost – had been killed. So that was a big blow to him. It was his older brother who had two babies at home.
WM: And your husband was stationed where?
LB: My husband was from Kentucky – I met him here. He was stationed at the Navy Yard. And my friend had a boyfriend, Al, and we would sometimes go downtown Philadelphia to do shopping. I was 16. She was 16. And she said Al was coming to meet her at Reading Terminal under the clock, and he brought his friend who became my husband.
KH: Romance began under the clock.
SR: Pop was in the Mediterranean during the war.
WM: Is there anything else you’d like to share with us?
LB: No, only that it was very nice remembering all these things and I appreciate you listening.
WM: Well, you’ve made it so vivid what it was like. It’s totally new to Katy and I – we had never met anyone who had lived there early on.
LB: Well there’s so much more I could have told you, but I can’t remember all the things – it has been a long time.
WM: Well you did remarkably well.
LB: Well thank you.
Jean Buckley (right, with younger sister, Arlene), born 1920
East Falls Historical Society Oral History Interview – Methodist Church Closing
Interviewee: Jean Buckley (JB)
Interviewer: Jenna Musket (JM)
Transcribed by: Marissa Lutz
Date: August 5, 2010
Summary:
In order to gain knowledge on the history of East Falls, Philadelphia, Jenna Musket, Adjunct Professor of Social Sciences at Philadelphia University, interviewed Jean Buckley. Mrs. Buckley is the oldest living member of Falls United Methodist Church.
With this interview we are able to understand the experiences in East Falls, the neighborhood’s past, and what has changed in the area. This interview will allow one to understand the suburban qualities of a town in urban Philadelphia.
____________________________________________________________________________________
JM: Thanking you for being generous with your time and coming to meet today.
JB: Oh.
JM: And maybe we can start simply with you sharing your full name and when and where you were born?
JB: I'm not.... well my full name, it was... Was or is now?
JM: Well why don't you start with your name when you were born...
JB: Maiden name, right?
JM: Yes
JB: It was Jean..... Audrey, well it was Audrey A-u-d-r-e-y Holmes H-o-l-m-e-s. And I was born on Cresson Street in 1920. And..... I was the fourth of five children. And.....my mother had three girls and two boys. And.....as I said, I was the fourth. And I don't know where we moved right after that. But my mother loved to move, she loved to paint, she loved it. Paint inside homes and things (laughing). But...I know we lived on Wiehle Street. Do you know where that is? Wiehle Street; right there at the train station?
JM: Yes, if you’re going down... if you’re going down Indian Queen Lane?
JB: Yeah, uh huh.
JM: Yes.
JB: We lived there. We lived on Plush Hill and then...
JM: And Plush Hill was? Where was Plush Hill?
JB: Plush Hill was right on Indian Queen Lane. Just where the new homes are. And ... we lived there a while in a big house. And then my uncle, my father's brother... had this...owned this ground down in New Jersey, outside of Ventnor, New Jersey, and he wanted to build houses there. So he wanted my dad to go down and help him. He wanted him to be a salesman.
Well, we moved to Ventnor Heights in New Jersey. And, lo and behold, the.....the crash came. My uncle lost all money and his property and everything. So, that meant my father had no job. So, we had to come back to Philadelphia, and we moved to New Queen Street, 3522 New Queen Street. And that... we lived there until I got married.
JM: Well while you’re talking about your father, why don't we focus on that a little bit.
Tell me...tell me more about your parents. Where were they from?
JB: Okay
JM: Who were your parents? Where were they from?
JB: My parents were Eva Smith, she had no middle name..... and my father, my mother, that was my mother... My father was Raymond Holmes. And I don't know when they were married, to tell you the truth.
JM: Where were they born?
JB: Where were they born?
JM: Where did they come from?
JB: My father was born here, in Philadelphia. But my mother was born in England. And my grandmother and grandfather came over here from England when she was one year old.
JM: Do you know where in England?
JB: Osset. 0-s-s-e-t. I haven't been there (laughing). Anyhow, I never knew that for years and years. And my mother... I think she went back. My mother and grandmother went back to England once, after they came here, and never went back again.
JM: Do you know why?
JB: Well I guess it was finances. And my grandmother had... one, two, three, four, five children. So I guess they couldn't, you know, go back and forth. But my father was a weaver.
JM: Hmm...
JB: He worked at Dobson's Mill
JM: Hmm...
JB: And he lived right on Indian Queen Lane, in the red brick house. And my mother lived on New Queen Street. So they got married (laughing). And as I said, they had five children, and my mother had six pregnancies and a...a little boy died and... I didn't know where he fit in, you know, in our family.
JM: How long was your father a weaver for Dobson Mills?
JB: Until nylon came into play (laughing) and then the woolen - the woolen business just went down the drain. So he had to change whatever he was doing. He used to go down to Ocean City and..... down the shore on weekends to sell property. And he worked for quartermaster department during the war. And... he had several jobs because in those days you.. .you couldn't say “I am going to work here for the rest of my life” because that's not the way things were. And many times he was out of work and it was rough, you
know. It was really rough for us. But then my sister, oldest sister, got work. And my...
JM: Where did she get work at?
JB: Uhh...
JM: And what kind of work?
JB: Collins and Aikman (note: manufacturer of automotive parts). She was a secretary, and that was in Manayunk.
JM: And she was older than you?
JB: Oh yeah! She was the oldest of them and ... We were all about two and a half years apart. And then my brother - my two brothers, they went to Northeast High School. My sister went to Germantown High School. And my one brother, Stanley. It was Dorothy the oldest, Don was the next one, Stanley was the next child, I was the next one, and Arlene was my youngest sister. She's the one who lives on Penn Street. And... so my brother Stan became a football player, I mean always active in sports.
JM: Where did he play football?
JB: He played football in Northeast High School. Then he went to Franklin and Marshall College, and he was captain of the team there.
JM: Where was Northeast High School?
JB: It is on Lehigh Avenue.
JM: Okay.
JB: I think it was Lehigh.
JM: And they he went to Franklin and Marshall?
JB: Franklin and Marshall College! And when he graduated from there he was semipro - a semipro football team. Then of course, he was called into the service and he was First Lieutenant.
JM: What year was that?
JB: What year? Let’s see... I would say maybe it was ’42 or “43 because I know that he wasn't in the service when I got married. I got married in 1941.
JM: And he was at your wedding?
JIB: Yeah, so I knew it was then. So then...but then he went in, he was called into the service. He first went into the Navy; he wanted to be a pilot. And he...he...he was a character (laughing). And when he went to land the plane, for the final test, he bounced the plane. And instead of him keeping his face strong, he got out and he laughed. They washed him right out. That was it!
So then he decided he would go into the Marines. And...he was ... now what was it? I can't think what he did first. He was...well...he was a Paratrooper. And he was in charge, of I don't know how many men; and they were landing on Iwo Jima; it was when they invaded it. And they were in these landing boats, and of course the Japanese just bombarded them. Fortunately he was killed right away.
And so... I have some things that I can show you. He had a son. His son was born in December, and,
well, he was in the service and he was killed in February. So we’re hoping he got the pictures, but we don't know whether or not he ever got to see his son.
JM: Hmm.
JB: So his son went to Annapolis. Graduated from there and then he decided he wanted to go into the Marines because his dad, because he never knew his dad. And so he went and... it was.. .what was the other war? There were so many wars (laughing).
JM: Vietnam?
JB: Vietnam! He went to Vietnam. He was wounded in Vietnam. And he could have gotten out of the service. Then he went back in again for a second time. And then he developed Agent Orange.
JM: Hmm.
JB: And he died when he was about forty-two.
JM: Oh my.
JB: And, when my sister-in-law … I felt so sorry for her when she saw...when she saw the officers at the door. When he said he was wounded she said, "Oh not again," you know. And the night that we found out about my brother we were all in church; it was Holy Thursday night.
JM: Down here at the Falls (Methodist) Church?
JB: At the Falls Church. Yeah. And my uncle came up the steps. And the church was so full that we were standing. It was standing room only. And he called us and said “Your mother just got a message that Stan was killed on Iwo Jima.” And umm... so... I remember that night. I just sat on the side of my mother's bed and just rubbed her arms and legs. And my father...oh it...it was very hard. But one thing we were
grateful for was that he didn't suffer. And we know that's true because one of the officers he told my mother that. So that was...
JM: He came back after the war and shared that with you?
JB: Mmm. And took pictures of Stan's grave. Because my sister-in-law and my mother said “No, he's been with those men all this time - he should stay with them” and that's what he did. .. So...but...but it was ….it
was a shock. I don't think my mother and father really ever got over it, I really don't. We ... I thought we handled it well. But umm... I guess when it is your child, it is very difficult. My father never did get over it.
JM: Never?
JB: No, he never did. And he just went from one thing to another. And he, but he, he didn't go to pieces. But I mean to say, he couldn't get settled what he really wanted to do.
JM: Well, it's a permanent loss.
JB: Right.
JM: There's no way to get that life back.
JB: Mm Hmm. So anyhow...
JM: That was around the same time period you got married? That was in the early forties?
JB: Well, that was about... I was married in 1941.
JM: Why don't you tell me a little bit about that.
JB: (laughing)
JM: About Mr. Buckley and how you met him...
JB: Well, Russ, you know, went to our church too. In those days a lot of the people that were in any of the churches married the people in those churches. So, it got to the point that almost everybody was related.
JM: (laughing)
JB: (laughing) And Russ, that was my husband, he was just a year older than me. I had known him a long time, 'cause my sister and his sister were very close friends. So you know I was in and out of their house and everything. I never though anything about it and then...
JM: Where...where did they live?
JB: They first they lived on Ainslie Street in the 3400 block. Then they moved when the houses were built on Ainslie Street and Vaux in that section, in the thirty-third (3300 block). They bought the corner house, and my father-in-law was again Treasurer of the Philco Corporation. And so they were there for a while and then he became the treasurer. And so they moved to the house on the corner of Vaux and Indian Queen Lane. On the... let’s see... that would be on the…on the... towards Henry Avenue - you know, on that corner there.
JM: Okay so on the other side.
JB: Yeah, and so they moved there. Well a friend of Russ' said to him, "Why don't you ask Jean, you know, to... “ There was a big party coming up and Russ was nervous and..... he knew me but he never thought of me in that way, you know, and so that's how we started .. .and we went together.
JM: Do you remember what the party was for?
JB: It was just someone's birthday, and I can’t even remember who it was. But we had a good time. And at the time I was living with my sister on Barkley Street because (laughing) my brother, oh God, my brother Donald eloped. My sister Arlene got married, and her apartment wasn't ready. So she moved back home. So there was no place for Jean right (laughing). So I went to live with my sister for a little while till the
apartment - Donald's apartment - was ready. And Don's apartment was on Indian Queen Lane - where Plush Hill was they made the apartments out of that.
JM: What kind of apartments? I don't - I have never seen pictures of before those new town homes were built.
JB: Well...
JM: What is going down Indian Queen Lane now?
JB: I'm trying to think. Ummmmm...
JM: Well just describe where he lived? What was it liked where he lived?
JB: The apartment. ..I think what happened was that the houses that we lived in were turned into an apartment. And I think, I think they had two bedrooms, and a living room, and a kitchen. And they lived there quite a while and then they decided that they wanted to have a house.
JM: Was Plush Hill … the real…the actual name that was on a map? Or was Plush Hill a nickname that people in this area gave it?
JB: Well I don't know, to tell you the truth. I always had a feeling that maybe there was a factory or something that, you know, did Plush work and I didn't know. But I don't know where it got that, but we all knew it as Plush Hill (ed. note: Plush Hill was the 18th century home of William Smith, the first Provost of the University of Pennsylvania)
JM: Hmm.
JB: And it was…it was … it was really, really nice (laughing). He had … my sister lived in an apartment at the top of the barber shop on Conrad Street. Let’s see, there's a pharmacy there now and ... she lived there for a while, I mean she finally moved to Penn Street. So uhh... but that's how I decided to go with Russ and we went together five years until we got married. And we were supposed to be married in October, but Russ got his notice to go into the service so we moved it up to June.
JM: Hmm.
JB: And my sister, Dorothy, had just had a baby, so I moved it up a week or two (laughing). She was ready to kill me.
JM: (laughing)
JB: And Arlene was four months pregnant, and she wasn't too happy either with me because they were both in the wedding. And I wasn't too happy in June because I wanted fall colors. And I ended up with pink and blue, (laughing) which I said (laughing) “Positively no! I will not have” (laughing).
JM: Hmm.
JB: But anyhow...
JM: Pink and blue for their dresses?
JB: Their dresses. You know their bridesmaids' dresses were pink and blue. Then because Russ had two perforated eardrums, they wouldn't take him. And so, you know, we could have waited till October, but we didn't. And then we moved into that house that I told you across the street from the Protestant Church.
I watched that being built, that church.
JM: Hmm. When was that built?
JB: It must have been, well, we were married in forty-one so I think they probably started it in forty. And my husband and I became air raid wardens.
JM: You became?
JB: Air Raid wardens.
JM: And what does, what did you do?
JB: Well everybody had to have a bucket of sand, a shovel …uhh what do you call them? A fireman hat, (laughing) extinguisher, and there was a….you had to have.. .you had to have jet black curtains.
JM: I see. Hold just … I'm gonna pause this for a minute.
JB: We had to take a course - my husband and I at...from the Red Cross.
JM: Where did you go for that? Where was the Red Cross at?
JB: Do you...do you know where the Old Academy was?
JM: Yes.
JB: Well do you know the building next to it?
JM: The Carfax building? The big white building?
JB: That house.
JM: Mmm.
JB: I don't know what it is now, but used to be the Young Men’s Association.
JM: Yeah I went to the… I think it’s called the Carfax building now.
JB: But that's what we had to…we had to…we had to go there. You know how to...we had to have lipstick to write on if we were to respond and somebody was hurt. You had to do that, you had to learn how to take their blood pressure and how to listen to their heart, and, you know. My husband was on duty at night, and I was on duty in the day.
JM: Hmm.
JB: The day. And if we got a call, you know, if we got an amber light, that meant there might be a bomb, you know, coming so we had to wear helmets.
JM: Where would the amber light come from? How did...
JB: On the phone, on the phone.
JM: So they had lights on the phone?
JB: No, no. They would say we have the amber light.
JM: Oh, it was code?
JB: Yeah.
JM: Okay.
JB: And then of course the sirens would go, and I used to have to go out and stop all traffic on Midvale Avenue. And people wouldn't stop (laughing) for me. And I’m saying you’re supposed to stop.
JM: (laughing)
JB: I'm out there with my...my. ..
JM: How would you get them to stop?
JB: Sometimes I didn't. Sometimes they just went. And I'd say "We have the amber light! We have the amber light! We have the amber light!" You know and umm...
JM: And when they would stop, what would you do?
JB: Well they just had to until I got the all clear.
JM: So they would just pull to the side of the road?
JB: Yeah. And then when the...when the...it was all clear, then the siren would come again and you would let them go.
JM: Where did the siren...where was that issued from? Where did that generate from?
JB: Umm, I can’t imagine. I don't…it was from the fire department. That's where I always though it came from.
JM: And the firehouse was the same firehouse? On Ridge Avenue?
JB: Mmm. And then at night my husband went out, of course there were no lights. You weren't allowed to have any lights. And it was frightening, it was to be out there at night, and so we got a little dog, (laughing) and he used to take the dog out with him. And he was all dolled up with his.. .his... he had, I guess he would call it a...call it a …oh what did policemen have that stick, you know... ?
JM: The Billy Clip?
JB: Yeah, the Billy Clip. We had a lot of stuff like that. And I will never forget this one night with Russ having trouble with his ears. I got the phone call and it said we have the ambulance. So I tapped him on the shoulder, and I said, (laughing) "Russ we have an amber light you have to get out." And he jumped up and got in our closet (laughing). He didn't know where he was. I think he had been asleep and had jumped up
and ran in the closet.
JM: (laughing)
JB: I got hysterical. And there he is (laughing) pushed up because he had to get dressed and out. And they gave you so much time, which wasn't very much.
JM: Hmm, so they were like first responders?
JB: Yeah. Mm hmm.
JM: Were Russ's parents also from England? What were his parents?
JB: Russ's parents were from East Falls. But his grandparents were from England - were from Manchester.
JM: Have you ever met them?
JB: I've know his aunts but I, oh...oh well, his grandmother I met, yeah. She was a character, and she lived down in Atlantic City in a in a hotel. And during the winter, she had this lovely room and had plenty of room and all that sort of things. But in the summer time she had to move to a smaller room because they could get more money than she was paying. You know, (laughing) there would be people coming on vacation.
JM: Mm hmm.
JB: So they'd pack up and go to England for the summer. She'd go from May until October then come home and go in the big apartment (laughing).
JM: How did she end up in Atlantic City?
JB: Well she just loved to go there. And when her husband died she lived up here for a while, and then she just decided that she’d like to live down there. And she was a funny...funny gal. She used to go to England, and she'd have a bag like this and maybe another little bag. And she lived off of those two bags from May until she came home in October.
JM: She's a light packer (laughing).
JB: She knew...she taught her granddaughter how to pack. I mean...
JM: Hmm.
JB: She rolled everything, you know, and she was really, she was ... Her mother was... when she came up here to visit, it would be for three days only. One (day) you come, one you stay, (laughing) then you leave. She said, "By that time your host is tired of you; you’re tired of them" (laughing). She'd come up on the bus and that's what she did.
JM: Hmm.
JB: Never stayed more than three days. And I think that was it - she missed her friends, you know. But she... she was a... she was a sweetheart, she really was. His grandfather was a barber. When they came from England, they were on their way to Australia, and how he got to Philadelphia I don't know.
JM: Hmm.
JB: But anyhow, he stopped. They stopped off here and he want to barber school and he...
JM: In Philadelphia?
JB: Yeah because that was not his profession. I don't know what he did. I'm sure he was a weaver because it was Manchester and that was an industrial, you know, town. But anyhow, his grandmother's family was in the pearl business. They made these little seed pearls.
JM: Hmmm.
JB: For you know...I have a pin that came from there. But anyhow, he had opened a shop there on Ainslie Street from Conrad... from, you know, I don't know what's there now.
JM: Is that where Joseph Patron Real Estate office is? Conrad and Ainslie?
JB: Conrad and Ainslie. Do you know where Joe the barber... (ed. note: Joe Michetti)
JM: I know...
JB: Do you know where Tilden Street is?
JM: Yes.
JB: If you come down to Ainslie Street, right, that's where.. .that's where his shop was. There was a bakery shop afterward.
JM: How nice.
JB: Remember that?
JM: No (laughing). No, I wish there was a bakery.
JB: (laughing) But I'm trying to think, what's on the corner there? There's, on the other side of the street, is the…I wanna say the café but it isn't.
JM: Apollo Pizza? No, that's on New Queen.
JB: Well it would be the next corner. You know it’s a bar or…
JM: The only two bars that I can visualize there actually are at the...actually both of them are at the corner of Indian Queen Lane and Conrad.
JB: Well this is up towards Ainslie Street, the lower Ainslie. And across the street used to be a shoe repair shop.
JM: So it was a very lively area then?
JB: This town was very self-sufficient.
JM: But also it sounds like Conrad Street was a major vein in terms of…
JB: Oh yes!
JM: Of activity.
JB: It was. And, you know, it was...it was amazing. But he was there for years and I said to my mother... She always sent me over to get my haircut, and she wanted him to cut my hair to the tip of the ear and shingled up the back. Well, he took that the tip of the ear was up here, and my mother wanted it here, (laughing) right here. And I wanted it here and I said to my mother, "Mother I'm not going to Mr. Buckley
anymore. He never cuts it the way I want it (whining)".
And he was a big man. And he, every once and awhile, he'd do a sigh of relief, "Ughhhhh," like that. And he blows like at my neck and (laughing) and I didn't like it. Next time I need a haircut I went to Mr. Buckley. But a wonderful man, real great man! And he was there for years. And the fellow that he was his apprentice, he opened a barber shop right across the street when he got older. And he was there for years.
JM: How do people come to be apprentices of people then?
JB: Well most...most... that's how you start out. You didn't start out you - you'd start out as the helper, you started out to learn.
It's just like in church. Russ, and it stopped with Russ's generation, they were being primed for leadership. They have a certain Sunday school called SMA, where they were being taught how to lead.
JM: When you say leadership, what do you mean?
JB: You mean like Treasurer, or trustee, or to be on the board and, you know. And they - they really, they really knew how to do things when they went into...to...to a service. And this one minister we had, my husband was the main leader then, and he was very young. And my husband said to him "You can nearly
have anything you want in this church but you have to go slow. You can't come in and change it overnight. You have to you know let the people know who you are and what you want".
And he said, "I'll have this church changed in one year."
JM: Your husband said this?
JB: No. The minister. He said “Well I wish you wouldn't do that." He said "Because you’re gonna have trouble." Well what he did was, he came in and all these men that have been on the board and trustees and Treasures. And there was a lot of people that worked in that church and he just rid of them all.
JM: What kinds of changes did he want to make?
JB: Well he wanted it to be more modern.
JM: What did that mean? I mean what year approximately are we talking about and what did he mean by modern?
JB: Well, I think at that time the Methodist Church was going through a change. And I remember I said to him, because I was teaching Sunday school, and I said, "I don't like the material that I'm teaching. And if I'm...... "
JM: Because why?
JB: Well, in the first place, all the pictures were very gruesome.
JM: In what way? What can... do you have any examples?
JB: Well, gruesome faces and gruesome uhh... I said, "You know, to little children that's frightening".
I mean I know that I didn't like to look at them myself. And I said, "If you want me to use this material then
I can’t be a teacher". And I said, "If I would think that I was scaring the children in the wrong way..." I said, "It would break my heart. I would die". So I said, "I really... "
Well he let me go back to the material I was using before that. And I... and that's when a dog looked like a dog, and a man looked like a man, and a woman looked like a woman (laughing). Not these gruesome terrible... they went through that, they got rid of it though. I mean...
JM: I’m still trying to picture what you mean by gruesome...
JB: Well...
JM: Gruesome...
JB: Umm, like umm ...I don't think you have anything gruesome around.
JM: (laughing) I'm sure I do somewhere.
JB: (laughing) But it would be like their faces would be...
JM: Contorted or...
JB: Yeah! Yeah!
JM: So it was more by the looks on their faces that...
JB: Yeah! Yeah! In fact did you ever see the upper room? It's a devotional.., they went that way even when I see the front …I said to my sister not too long ago, "Why in the world do they put these pictures? Why don't they make it serene and nice? A picture to look like a picture".
JM: Well, why… why do you think they depicted...
JB: I don't know. It was, it’s modern art that's what it is. And, but I guess it didn't affect the children as much as it affected me.
JM: How do you... What makes you say that?
JB: Well, because they seemed to accept, you know, what it was... it was me that wanted the change. And, but this minister, he got rid of all the trustees all the men that worked for years and years, put all new men, all young men in that didn't know, you know, the workings of the church or anything...
JM: Where did...where did these young people come from?
JB: Well, they...they were in church.
JM: Okay.
JB: But they hadn't been trained to do these things, and the older men were crushed. You know, the men who had worked so hard for so many years. And they had to be elected every year. You know, you just didn't stay. They had elections and everything.
And so all of a sudden, the schools were doing bussing. And from then on all those young people moved out of East Falls, out of the city.
JM: Because?
JB: Because they didn't want their children bussed to another neighborhood.
JM: Where would they have gotten bussed to?
JB: Well, who knows? They would probably go into a black neighborhood because the black children were being bussed here. Which wasn't right. Their mothers didn't want them bussed either, you know. And, one
by one, that's when our church started to fall apart.
And one family left, another family would leave, and another family would leave. Some took their children out of the school here and put them in Catholic school. And uhh...
JM: So some made the choice to rather than have their children bussed, put them into St. Bridget’s or to put them into the local Catholic...
JB: Right. Mm hmm.
JM: And others chose to move out of the neighborhood so their kids could to continue to walk...
JB: It was very high on the …. My children went to Penn Charter School. So I didn't have much to do with...with that school there.
JM: When you say that school do you mean Mifflin or...
JB: Mifflin, yeah.
JM: There was another school. Was it Breck?
JB: Oh, Breck is where I went to school. That was on Krail Street, Krail and Crawford.
JM: How was school when you went to Breck?
JB: How was it?
JM: Yeah. What was your ...
JB: Oh I just loved it! We walked to school, we had to be there by nine and lined up in lines, you know. I used to walk into the classroom, and we walked home at twelve o'clock for lunch. We had to be back by one thirty, walk back.
JM: Is this when you were on Ainslie...Ainslie Street or...
JB: I was on...
JM: Plush Hill?
JB: Queen...
JM: On Indian Queen?
JB: New Queen.
JM: New Queen, okay.
JB: Mm hmm. And we would walk back and then we'd be there till 3:30 and then we'd walk home again. So we walked a lot you know (laughing). And we used to have a little Italian man who sold pretzels, salt pretzels.
JM: Where was this? At the school?
JB: At the school, but we had to stay outside the gate, you know. And his name was Mr. Brenew (?) and...
JM: Did he live in the neighborhood?
JB: He lived in Ridge Avenue I think. And he was so nice. And his pretzels were always real shiny. And the kids used to say, "Mr. Brenew spits on his on his (laughing) pretzels and shines them up every day. I said "Ooohh, he does not". But he would come every day and, umm, we had some great teachers. We really did. I loved that little school.
JM: What happened to the school?
JB: Well, to tell you the truth I really don't know. They decided - I don't know if it was because they didn't have enough people to go there or what. But we graduated in eighth grade.
JM: So you went through the eighth grade at Breck?
JB: Yea. And I am gonna tell you this and I shouldn't. And I won a girls $2.50 gold piece for the highest marks (laughing). And there was a boy by the name of Bob Worhead, and he got it for the boys.
JM: That was when you were in 8th grade you won this?
JB: And, yeah, I just looked at it last night. The little... I still have it. Not the money, but I do have the container. And so then we were not allowed to go to Roxborough. We had to go... we were out of district or something. And so we went to Germantown High. And we had to go oven on the trolley and, um, I didn't go to college; we couldn't afford that. But I graduated in 1938.
JM: Would you have liked to?
JB: Yeah, I always wanted to be a school teacher. But...
JM: Well you did teach Sundays.
JB: I taught... yeah, that was kind of my (laughing) my substitute you know. And, but I did... I did and I enjoyed it.
JM: Did you work when... after you got married at all?
JB: No. You didn't work after you got married. If you were fortunate enough that the company would say you could stay, but they would say you were taking another person’s job.
JM: The company would say that?
JB: Yeah, some... some would not hire.
JM: So, not you husband, but the company would say that they did not want married women?
JB: Yes, exactly... exactly!
JM: Why?
JB: Because there was a Depression. And there was not enough jobs to go around. So it took me two years to get a job after I graduated. I went everywhere.
JM: What year did you graduate?
JB: 1938. And I hated going on interviews! I didn't give good interview. I didn't, I guess. But, my friends, the only way that they got a job was if they knew somebody. And I couldn't ask anybody, well, you know.
JM: What kinds of jobs did you apply for?
JB: Well, I took the commercial course. So I would be a secretary, or a book keeper or…..I finally got a job through a friend of my mother’s at Germantown Trust. And I was the bookkeeper for the Title Department. So that's what I did, before I got married. But my... my husband didn't want me to work anyhow, but still I was taking somebody else's job. You know who did that. So...
JM: And you had learned bookkeeping in high school?
JB: Mm hmm. Bookkeeping, shorthand and typing and, of course, we had to write our English and history and all that sort of thing.
JM: Did they teach languages when you were in high school?
JB: Yes I took French. Yeah, mm hmm. But when I think - when my youngest son said to me "Why didn't you go in for music?" I said "Because I didn't have the opportunity". He was like, "What do you mean you didn't have the opportunity?" I said, "When you in the 19... 1940's, when you got married you made a home for your husband and your children and that was your job." And I said, "You know Bob," I said, "You didn't even realize that the salaries then, when my husband started working, he only made $20 a week". When I have my job, I had... I got $65 a month. And when... when we came home, I am saying “we” because my brothers and sisters did too, we handed our whole pay over to our mother. And my mother gave me $2.50 a week. Out of that came seventy-five cents for car fare for school. And, you know, if I needed socks or... all came out from that $2.50. And we would go over to the five and ten.
JM: Where was that?
JB: On Germantown Avenue. Walk over and walk back, and so we saved the money you know.
JM: And then what would you do with the money?
JB: Well then I'd then buy a pair of socks, or maybe a lipstick or something like that. But uhh...
JM: Did they have any movie theaters? Or...
JB: Oh yes!
JM: Were there... did they have any candy stores? I mean were there... where were some of the... what did you... was there anything fun that you did with your $2.50 (laughing)?
JB: (laughing) Well... by that time I was buying things for myself. But we had, when I was younger, on Friday nights they had fireworks over at Woodside, which was an amusement part.
JM: Every Friday?
JB: Every Friday night.
JM: Where was Woodside?
JB: Woodside was all off City Line, over near Lord and Taylor.
JM: Oh!
JB: In that area. And we would walk over there at night and walk back. But on Friday nights they would have these fireworks. And everybody would sit on the curb in the street. And my... that was the night we could have an ice cream cone. And my sister and I had the one dip. My neighbors had two dips. And I kept thinking, "Oohhh, I hope someday I can have two dips!"
JM: (laughing) And why did they... why did they get to get two dips?
JB: Because, my mother said they only had two children and we had five you know. We couldn't afford that. And we would sit there and we'd clap with those fireworks, you know.
JM: How big was the amusement park? Woodside... how large... how big was Woodside?
JB: It was big, pretty big. It was, I'll tell you, do you know where Belmont Avenue is?
JM: Sure.
JB: Well it was right over in there. And, as I said, we used walk, and I can't imagine that my mother allowed me to do it, because it was scary, going through West River Drive and all through...
JM: You would walk with your friends?
JB: Oh yea. And there was, they used to say... there was a part there... and they used to say, if you ever slipped and fell in there, they'd never find you. Whether that was true or not I don't know, but everybody would be staying on the other side of the road you know (laughing). But we had candy stores. In fact you know where The Hidden Valley is? That Hidden Valley, the little restaurant?
David McClenahan, born 1947
East Falls Historical Society Oral History Interview
Interviewee: David McClenahan
Interviewer: Lyda Doyle
Date of interview: June 2, 2014
Transcriber: Wendy Moody
LD: So, we’ll start with when and where you were born.
DM: Well I was born in Philadelphia in Chestnut Hill Hospital. I lived at 3434 Midvale at the time with my parents. That’s just a block from here.
LD: Did you move directly from there to here?
DM: Directly from there to here (3805 Vaux Street in East Falls) around 1954.
LD: Where were your parents born?
DM: My parents – my mother was born in East Falls. I think she was born at home which was on New Queen Street, down near the railroad tracks. 5 or 6 houses up from Indian Queen Street (Cresson?). She was actually born at home, and my dad was born in Kensington and moved here when he was about… somewhere under 10 years old. I don’t know exactly when. He moved to East Falls and lived in several houses before he and my mom got married.
LD: Did you know where they met?
DM: Best of my knowledge, they met at the Falls Presbyterian Church. All four of my grandparents lived in East Falls and one of them was born in Philadelphia (Germantown).
LD: What were their names?
DM: Well, Annie Neely was my grandmother on my mother’s side. She was the one who was born in the United States, in Philadelphia. Robert Neely was my grandfather on my mother’s side. He was born in Ireland. And he lived on, I think, Calumet Street.
And then my grandmother on my father’s side was Sarah Archer. She was born in Ireland and she lived in several places in Philadelphia. The first in East Falls was on Mill Street. I’m not exactly sure where Mill Street was.
LD: Maybe we can look it up on an old map sometime.
DM: Yeah, I know we looked it up but I couldn’t find it this morning to see exactly where it was, but it was over there. And then very shortly after that they moved to 3608 Calumet Street and then for some reason moved to 3606, or maybe it was the other way around, but they moved from one house to the other.
And, let’s see, my grandfather McClenahan (William H McClenahan, Sr.) - he was born in Ireland and lived in various places in the Kensington area before he lived at Calumet Street.
I don’t know where – well, my grandmother and grandfather McClehanan met in Kensington somewhere, in Philadelphia, and got married in that area. And I don’t really know exactly what the story was. Sarah and William McClenahan were married in the year 1900 at the 5th Reformed Church, Front St above York St in Kensington.
I didn’t say that my grandmother Neely’s maiden name was Annie Cropper. Everybody came to East Falls basically because of textiles.
LD: Because there was employment – there were textile mills.
DM: So that’s the original reason why parts of the family started in Kensington, because that was the textile center in the United States at the time. And then they (my grandparents) found their way to East Falls– for some reason – I don’t know what happened – some of them - the Croppers, I know, were hired in Ireland and sent to East Falls by the company to Dobson Mills. I don’t know the reason why some of the other parts of the family came here – what mill it was – or what textile thing –but they were all basically involved with the mills here.
Except for my grandfather McClenahan and he was not a well man – and he was not a highly trained man – he was a grave digger and had other jobs. One of the jobs he had when he was in East Falls – which brought him to this area, I guess – was he was a shepherd for sheep in Fairmount Park.
LD: Were they privately owned, do you know?
DM: No, they were city-owned. It was a city job and they brought them to cut grass. They would release small herds of sheep and they would move them all over and they would cut the grass. So there’s actually an old barn that’s still over in Fairmount Park. An outdoor display is at the barn and it’s all the pictures and explanations as to that’s what occurred.
Bob and I came across that accidently in a walk and said “We know our grandfather was a shepherd - we knew he was over across the Schuylkill River (from East Falls) herding sheep.” The sign said they were there cutting grass and they were there in the 1920s era and then it closed. The barn is still there.
LD: Very interesting. Now when you were growing up here in the ‘50s, what were the houses like? Pretty much like they are now?
DM: Yeah, very little has changed. The houses that all the grandparents moved into first – starting all the way back in the very late 1800s when the Croppers came to East Falls – that house is still there. They house they lived in on Bowman Street and Calumet Street – those houses are all there - and Indian Queen Lane, Ainslie Street, Midvale with Bob and I, and then this house. This house was not…we’re the first occupants of this home.
LD: Did you show me a house that your ancestors probably were in that was where McMichael Park is today? The Morgan House?
DM: Yeah, the “Blue” book calls it the Morgan House. It has all sorts of fascinating possible ties. Even the property has been changed a lot with other houses so it’s hard to tell exactly what was going on there. But in the Neely family, which was my grandfather’s family, he married into the Cropper family. Our mother, Clara Neely McClenahan’s father’s mother was Isabella Morgan.
That makes Isabella Morgan our Great-Grandmother. So we have that possible connection. We have pictures of the Cropper family sitting on the porch of the house, one of which identified it as being near the current Henry Avenue and Midvale. It was identified in the 1940’s by my aunt – my great-aunt Clara Cropper. And she’s in the picture and she identified it as being near there (near the current Henry and Midvale).
Some of the pictures in that East Falls Blue Book indicate there was a connection. I don’t have any real estate record yet to say they owned the house. Their regular house in that same period was over on Calumet Street, so it’s just possible it was a village house or something they went to visit. It was very rural back then. The pictures of it show it sitting all by itself on a little hillside with a stream going by it. And it’s possible they vacationed or just were visiting there.
My Aunt Clara Cropper – I overlapped with her - she died in the 1960s – we can remember her talking about it - in her handwriting is written on the picture that that picture was taken with our family on the front - all identified and recognizable. Somewhere on Henry and Midvale we later found out it may be Coulter and Henry. We don’t have any clue! (laughs)
LD: Well maybe someday…
DM: I hope. We’re going to try to figure out how to understand the real estate records a little bit better. That name Morgan is an old-time name in East Falls. We have no idea whether it’s connected except we know that our great grandparents were Morgans living in East Falls.
LD: Now, where did you go to school?
DM: I went to at Mifflin School.
LD: Did they have a kindergarten then or did you start in first grade?
DM: No, I started in kindergarten. I can remember Miss Murphy was my kindergarten teacher. The current building, without the extension they put on the back about 10 years ago or so, the kindergarten room is still in that building. I haven’t been in the school in years so I don’t know what they’ve done inside. But, yeah, a full year in kindergarten and then I went there for 7 years.
LD: And where did you go for high school?
DM: My parents had decided that they were going to send Bob and I to Friends Central High School out on City Line Avenue – a Quaker high school similar to Penn Charter but it was co-ed. And to insure that we would be ready for Friends Central, which was assumed to be a little ahead academically of Philadelphia (actually, I would have gone to Roxborough High School if I had stayed in the public school system), the school recommended we started a year early. Officially back then high school was 9 through 12 so they recommended that I take 8th grade at Friends Central, which was a kindergarten through 12th grade school.
LD: Now at Mifflin they had Shop and Home Ec classes for 7th and 8th grade. Did you take shop in 7th grade before you went…?
DM: 7th grade, yeah. The so-called cycle where you changed classes – very similar to what college ended up being, and high school. They had that too in 7th and 8thgrade. Yeah, I had shop. Mr. Simon was my Shop teacher. Mrs. Terrill was my Home Ec teacher.
LD: Was she still there – although I think I’m older than you. I just turned 66.
DM: I’m a year older (laughs).
LD: Did you have Miss Heck in 6th grade?
DM: Yes I did! Ruth Heck, yes.
LD: And Miss Young for math?
DM: Miss Young, Mrs. Lyons….
LD: Mrs. Dunn?
DM: Mrs. Dunn.
LD: Mrs. Sypher?
DM: Mrs. Sypher. She conducted our Glee Club. I’d love to get back in there. I had a lot of fun at Mifflin. They had bazaars. They had poster contests for the bazaars. I can remember my mom – I made up a poster and she said “You can work on that a little bit more” and when it was done it was my mom’s poster! (laughs) I can actually remember that. It was lavender.
And the teachers were all very nice. My mother was very, very involved in the P.T.A. so she knew all the teachers. I couldn’t get away with a thing. And because I was following three years behind Bob – he was academically very good, and I wasn’t the best academically – so it was always “You’re not keeping up…”
LD: Are you Bob’s brother??
DM: Yeah! And Dr. Israel Galter – he was actually the Principal when they moved from Breck to Mifflin because there were various people that I met over the years - one was Irene Webster – she’s in her 80s now – and she remembers marching from the old Breck School to Mifflin. Sort of settling into the new school.
LD: A celebration.
DM: Yeah. And Dr. Galter was the Principal at that time and he was still principal when I was there. I don’t know when he left. When I left, he was still principal.
LD: Did you have Christmas shows when you were there?
DM: Christmas shows? Yeah, I can remember standing on the stage. They had a wonderful stage – well-equipped - a BIG stage with big curtains – I guess for little children it was even bigger, flood lights, headlights and everything, sound system.
I can remember I was dressed as Santa Claus in one of the Christmas pageants and they were playing – we didn’t sing – they were playing Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer – and it started off “You know Dasher and Dancer…” and I stood on the stage and then the classmates jumped out and they were dressed in reindeer costumes and I would point to the part of the stage and out popped a reindeer – Dasher, Dancer – and then Rudolph came out with the red nose. I don’t know if it was electric or not!
And one other thing – they had assembly every morning in the auditorium. They played music as the students were coming in and it was always classical music. They didn’t have many records – maybe 10 or 20 songs and one of my jobs, for a few years, was to play the records. So I got to go – when I went in, I would go up the side stairs onto the stage and through a little door and there was room back there and in it was this big old record player with an amplifier
And we’d turn it on and set it all up and then, whoever was doing it, and I was just one of the people who did it, we’d come out and stand on the stage and say “Today you will hear….and it was like….Clair de Lune by….I probably said Debussy or something (laughs)….and Clair de Lune was one of them - I can distinctly remember that.
And you’d announce it – I had a little weak child’s voice, but and then you’d play it, and when it was over, or you were signaled to end and turn the needle off, you turned everything down, and came down and sat in your seat.
LD: Do you remember singing in assembly? I don’t know if it was for special occasions?
DM: Yeah, I can remember singing.
LD: I can remember Jacob’s Ladder and Battle Hymn of the Republic.
DM: Yeah, I’m sure of that. I can remember playing - I played the trumpet when I was at Mifflin because Philadelphia School System had a program where they would give you free music lessons if you supplied your own instrument.
So, Bob came first, so the word went out in the family – no one had any musical instruments – and somebody came up with a clarinet, so Bob played the clarinet. He was taught how to play the clarinet in his music lessons. Mine was – the word went out – and the only response was from the Neely family on New Queen Street (my mother’s family) – somebody had a cornet – a trumpet, and that’s what I got. And that’s what I learned to play.
But what I was thinking of was – I remember another classmate – Jacqueline MCCullough – she played the violin. And she and I, under the direction of Miss Heck, we learned This is My Father’s World, a hymn, and we played it as a duet. A very odd trumpet/violin duet (laughs) with her on the piano, I think.
So there was no – the whole religious thing – it was clearly a Christian-oriented education. And prayer, of course was there at the time.
LD: And Pledge of Allegiance?
DM: And Pledge of Allegiance. Yeah, every day. Even days when we weren’t in the auditorium. And that’s why I don’t remember if assembly was a couple days a week, because I can remember saying the Pledge of Allegiance in the classroom.
LD: And a prayer.
DM: And a prayer. Yeah, I’m sure we sang hymns. And I know there was the glee club. I don’t know what occasions they sang; I know it wasn’t every day.
LD: The glee club…the Gotwols had something to do with the glee club.
DM: All I sorta remember about that was that Miss Sypher led it and she had these big flowing arms (laughs) Very different from Miss Dunn.
LD: Did Miss Heck ask you to play the bells or autoharp?
DM: Autoharp. What’s the song – I don’t want to sing on the tape – I can remember the song I learned on the autoharp. Strum with the right hand, over the left – yeah, I remember that.
The rooms I remember and, oh, the desks – the desktop was attached to the chair in front of you. So if that person moved the chair, the desktop moved.
LD: They had inkwells in them.
DM: They had inkwells in them. Now my father told me stories – my parents and aunts and uncles would tell me stories about dipping the girls’ hair in the inkwells. There was no ink in them by the time I came along! (laughs)
LD: Was there a girl in front of you?
DM: Yeah! Because I was all trained and ready to do that.
LD: There wasn’t much interaction among the schools, right? Mifflin didn’t play St. Bridget in sports…
DM: No, I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I think in those days the separation between Catholic and Protestant groups was stronger, and I don’t mean that in a negative way but there was a greater separation. I came from an Irish family – from a Northern Ireland town (Protestant). Many other Irish came from the south of Ireland. Whatever the differences were was very important to them, then they are now.
LD: And I think there were a lot of sandlot sports.
DM: There was. I was not a sports person so even on that form you gave me. I had nothing I could fill that I had played sports.
LD: But you were involved in music a lot, and church.
DM: Church and music. They were the big things. We did a lot of things then through the church – I didn’t do as many things through the school - as far as sports were concerned. I do remember recesses and organized games in the schoolyard. I was never on any of the East Falls’ sports teams, or Little League.
LD: Where would your family shop for food, clothes, housewares?
DM: Basically Germantown. Germantown had department stores – Allens, Rowell’s, and they had Penn Fruit Market over on Wayne and Chelten, a Food Fair market…
LD: Did your parents drive over or did you take the trolley?
DM: Both. For shopping, then you’d drive. We also went to the YMCA at Greene and Chelten - we walked to that on Saturday mornings - plus the 52 trolley went right by. Sometimes we’d walk over to the Y and then take the trolley home. 7 cents or something.(laughs)
Yeah, so Germantown supplied most of the stores we went to – but Roxborough was just as close, maybe even closer but, I don’t know why, but Germantown seemed to be where we went.
LD: And there were some grocery stores in East Falls where you could get something during the week.
DM: Yeah, there was an American Store down on Ridge and Midvale. And there was the Tilden Market, which is still there, that was the store closest to here and you could get whatever anybody had forgotten. Plus they had a really terrific meat…they had a real butcher and they did cut up carcasses. Then they’d cut it and hand it and show it to you – “Is that what you’re looking for?” wrapped it in paper instead of wrapped up in plastic…
LD: Did you get deliveries from the milk man or bread man?
DM: Bond Bread. Milk – I’m not sure who it was. And there was a laundry man for my father’s white shirts with starched collars. There was a huckster who came up the street – there was a tailor shop on Sunnyside and Vaux. Dry cleaning and things like that. Yeah, there were a lot more little stores and businesses – barber shops.
LD: Were there any candy stores?
DM: Candy stores? There was one just past the school on Conrad Street. And you’d go in there with your nickel and buy pieces of candy – wax lips – do you remember wax lips? And a little paper like a cash register tape with little candy dots pasted on it. That was a good business when you think it was so close to the school. I went home for lunch when I went to school. I never ate lunch at the school because I was only a block away.
LD: So then your mother wasn’t working. In those days most of the mothers were stay-at-home moms.
DM: Yeah. She apparently worked up until Bob was born and then stopped. She was a stenographer, typist. My mom always told everybody I was a typewriter (laughs). My dad worked in Philadelphia for the first part. I’m not sure when, but his company then, which was Merck, moved out to the suburbs so he commuted for a number of years to Lansdale.
LD: Did he take the train?
DM: No, he drove (to Lansdale).
LD: Did he drive in town or take the train?
He took the train in town. The Norristown Local. He’d take it to Spring Garden Street Station and then walked about 4 blocks to Broad and Wallace.
LD: Do you remember what make car he had?
DM: Hmm. Basically Chevys that somewhere along the line turned into Oldsmobiles. And I think for the rest of his life – he and my mom had Oldsmobiles. He used to be one of these people who bought a new car every few years whether he needed it or not. He didn’t pass that on his son! I just got a new car after having the other one for 11 years and that’s about my average – 11 years.
When he was - as I said, he was working at Lansdale, it was about a 25 mile commute – it was a reverse commute so he was going out of the city when most people were coming into the city. Bob and I ended up also working out in the suburbs in the same relative area. I in Warminster and Bob in another part of Lansdale/North Wales.
LD: So did you keep the same jobs for your whole careers?
DM: Always. Bob and I did, yeah. I worked for 27 years – we both retired early - and Bob worked for 30 years in the same place. When my parents were first thinking of moving from Midvale Avenue – I looked that up – so it was 1994….no, 1954!
LD: I was going to question that but you caught it yourself! (laughs)
DM: Apparently, they debated – they discussed as to whether they should live out where he was working. And as I understand it, my mother was strongly, strongly an East Fallser - never leaving East Falls and never leaving the church. So dad accepted that -as was his approach to marriage – and he commuted.
And I basically came to the same thing. When I was working - 22 miles to get to Warminster – commuting in traffic and in snow and everything, and keep thinking “Why aren’t I living out here?” I never wanted to.
LD: Your mother had a very strong sense of community and church and evidently that became part of your life. Falls Presbyterian is one of the two churches left in East Falls.
DM: Yeah. Well, we’ve always been associated with that church. My dad was involved quite a bit and at one time they had a number of people in charge of building – we call it the new church, but it opened in 1945. So he was head of the building committee for that. There’s a lot of interesting stuff about that involving getting money - the Dobsons were involved. He could remember having to go to the Dobson estate and knocking on the door as a representative of the church, with a couple other people and basically he always used to beg the Dobsons to give more money.
LD: Do you know how the site was selected?
DM: The original church was down on Kelly Drive (Ridge Avenue) and was getting old. This church building is actually just as old now. But apparently that one wasn’t built quite as well so was having some constructual problems.
Plus, East Falls generally grew – when East Falls started, I would say, most of the activity of East Falls was from the railroad on down the hill. Most of the houses were there. I’m talking now – the church started the process to move in the 1920’s, even though they didn’t accomplish it until 1945. But part of that process – the first thing they did was to decide on where - and they all decided that East Falls was moving up the hill. Eventually. And with the church you’re chasing the people, not the business so they – I don’t know the details of why this parcel of virgin land became available, but it was the size that they wanted. Some of the homes that are up in this area now were there. We’re talking about the 1920s. So a lot of the homes – like some of homes on Midvale – the ones where we lived in - they appeared in the 1930’s somehow. It was still sort of an open area. It was their vision to be there and they bought the property. It was
vacant for years – they didn’t start building until the 1940’s.